I didn’t join the Fediverse to have Facebook, Google, Apple, Microsoft or any other corporate surveillance outfit follow me here and mine data my data from here. I too hope SDF will block Threads.
I guess I don’t understand why we would be lenient with a corporation that has actively destroyed the modern internet for profits, blatantly violates user privacy, etc etc.
The topic of defederation seems to really make people want to break out their soap boxes to talk about open access and free love, despite you know… the real world being real, and corpos willing to shit on your good thing for a few bucks.
Allowing an org to federate is not being lenient, it is how federation works. Defederating should be done to protect the federation from a node causing harm to the federation–not preemptively in my opinion.
So let a known criminal into your home, until they commit a crime? Wouldn’t not letting the known criminal into your home be the safer, more protective route?
Facebook will cause harm by its very presence.
In any event, people with your opinion may end up in one fediverse “neighborhood,” and people with my opinion will end up in another.
I’m fine with that, as the “neighborhood” I end up in will have a lot less inane garbage everywhere.
Remember, Facebook literally facilitated ethnic cleansing as a result of their techbro “move fast and break things” philosophy and their disinterest in paying for content mods with knowledge of local languages.
Meta doesn’t give a fuck about anyone here or anything we’ve built. Mark Zuckerberg wants power and money and to push his weird bloodless McDonalds-ized vision of what the Internet should be on every single person on this planet.
Fuck that, and fuck any sort of cooperation with it.
I made the decision to leave shitty corporate platforms for a reason. The people I’d like to follow or interact with who still only use such platforms can come to their decision in their own time.
I am not interested in selling out my values, nor am I interested in enduring a tsunami of bottom-of-the-barrel interaction with average Meta users, in the name of interoperability. Meta made the choice to be a shitty entity with shitty values that builds shitty things. I don’t feel like being covered in shit.
Ask yourself, in three years from now will you be thinking “it’s so nice how Meta lets me follow and interact with their enormous userbase for free, without advertising, using my own open source server and frontend”?
Remember that’s the basic expectation today for a participant in the fediverse. If this feels implausible, doing anything else is very incompatible with the fediverse’s existing values.
The problem isn’t just that it’s Meta, it’s any situation where a much larger actor comes in with different motivations. Today we have a small number of users whose servers are almost exclusively run on a “community service” model. Meta is an advertising business. They are much bigger and will define the fediverse if allowed in. If we allow them to connect, it should be much later after organic growth which means we can assimilate them properly and deflect any bad behaviour.
What might happen if Meta throws their weight around? I can predict at least three outcomes
- Proprietary variations to ActivityPub, probably starting with something that seems “understandable” like moderation reasons.
- Certain new features get centralised on Meta’s servers only (e.g. search) claiming that it’s for efficiency in the distributed environment.
- Claiming spam problems, require individual instance operators or their users to verify themselves with Meta to enable federation.
The question in my mind is whether their intention is to destroy the competition, or keep the fediverse alive as a way to claim that they are not a technical monopoly that needs to be broken up by regulators, in the same way that Google provides most of the funding for Firefox.
I joined this instance because I like what SDF does as an organization. It’s cool that they offer so many public services that anyone can use if they follow the rules. Supposing Threads ever joins the Fediverse, I’d hope SDF keeps them around as long as it’s not harming SDF users.
Meta is going to do Meta things whether we make it difficult for them or not. “Preemptively” saying no one who dares use a Meta tool is welcome in the “Fediverse” is guilt until proven innocence and collective punishment
I find it very hypocritical to say, in one breath, “we need open standards and federated sites so that no one party can be a gatekeeper” and in the next “no, Meta, we as gatekeepers have decided we don’t like you and you’re not welcome here.”
If you block all of Meta just because they’re Meta, not only do you punish countless potential valued contributors who have done no wrong, you also embolden Meta to engage with the Fediverse in less legitimate, more underhanded ways. Which they will do, as I said, no matter what blocks are put in their way.
Let’s focus on building affirmatively and consciously the community we want instead of walking around with chips on our shoulders. If bad actors appear, they can be dealt with individually without banning large parts of the rest of the world.
I would counter that Meta has used their “tool” to in essence to support a genocide and that makes them untrustworthy.
As for having open standards with no gatekeepers… that point is a false equivalency. We have open standard like encryption, but that doesn’t mean one should go post their private ssh keys online. There are bad actors in this world and Meta Inc is one of them.
Do you believe people who use Meta tools are complicit in crimes against humanity? If so, I’ve got some bad news about the Internet.
Give people a chance. Who knows; maybe some of them will drop the Meta tool and pick up the one you prefer.
Meta is not a person and Meta as a corporation (and the people who run it) are complicit in war crimes.
As for their users (which I am not conflating with Meta, the corporate entity), there is nothing stopping them from creating a Lemmy account.
Again, Meta is not a person and Meta is not it’s users. There is nothing wrong with many of the people who use Meta products.
Edited: I apologize, I removed part of the comment that was on retrospect, uncalled for.
I’m saying if a good and decent person uses the Meta tool to interact, they should not face summary justice for doing so. If they use the Meta tool to abuse, harass, be an asshole? Yes, ban them. If they use it to introduce themselves gently to this community, learn its ways, become a valued or even trusted member… why deny them that opportunity simply for what is really just an unfortunate choice of app?
We agree that Meta is not good. Let there be no dispute about that.
Edit: removed response to portion of previous post that was itself removed. #GoodFaith
My take is that it’s a Trojan horse meant to handle a multiple potential competitors, the Fediverse being one of them. Meta tries to either take over or kill competitors: they purchased Instagram for fear of competing with it; they purchased Whatsapp; they considered purchasing TikTok and then when they didn’t, they instead funded the push to malign it and ban it. This is all in addition to all the other things they’ve done (like manipulating teens’ emotional states without their or their parents’ consent, building shadow profiles for non-Facebook users, using a free data usage counter as a Trojan horse to figure out what apps people were using and then purchase one of the popular ones… WhatsApp, and the previously mentioned alleged warcrimes to name a few).
We agree that Meta Inc. has no moral scruples and buckets of money. Where we disagree is that I think that not only does the corporation have no moral scruples, I think they actively use their lack of morality to snuff out competition using what ever means possible and then shape opinion to make a profit. If Threads were just a client like Memmy, Jerboa, or Tusky it would be different, but it’s not.
Edit: added a clause changed some formatting.
Sure, they are fiercely anti-competitive and seek to eliminate their competition. Such is the nature of the publicly held corporation, whose literal only purpose is to maximize profit to their shareholders. To the extent that Meta sees their competitors as stealing their potential profit, they will and in fact must fight. It cannot be helped.
I believe this community is strong enough to resist attempts to snuff it out. I believe the technology is well-developed and well-situated to survive such attempts. Those who choose to use it will continue to use it, whatever Meta does. Those who see us as a bunch of misfit losers who just want to be different will continue to hold that view, whatever Meta does. I think the opportunity lies in finding the people who want something different than what’s on offer from the “mainstream” Internet, showing them what we can do, and giving them the chance to join us. And I think cutting off Meta, as defensively or strategically well-intended as it might be, hurts that.
I’m an optimist because being a pessimist drives me into dangerous depression. I understand not everyone shares my optimism. There are already plenty of people who have made the decision to cut off Meta from the servers they maintain, and will not reconsider. That is unfortunate, but that too also cannot be helped. I hope SDF won’t go that route. If they do, I’ll still stay here; the people I want to communicate with are here. But I just hope we don’t cut off people simply for being on Meta’s app. That’s all.
There’s being an optimist, and there’s being a pollyanna.
Your optimism about Meta is badly misplaced.
This feels a little bit like a “corporations are people” spin, intended or not. But I don’t think that’s benefited society all that much, in past.
I did not say Meta, a corporation, is people. I am saying the people who will use this tool, including people we all know, are people and don’t deserve to be presumed guilty of Crimes Against The Fediverse for exploring it with any particular tool.
are people and don’t deserve to be presumed guilty of Crimes Against The Fediverse for exploring it with any particular tool.
If they would like to explore, they are free to use any of the many tools not built by a shitty company with shitty intentions and many, many, many shitty users.
If you block all of Meta just because they’re Meta, not only do you punish countless potential valued contributors who have done no wrong,
Bullshit. There’s no “punishment” whatsoever. Those users are free to open accounts on fediverse servers at any time.
you also embolden Meta to engage with the Fediverse in less legitimate, more underhanded ways.
You mean like anointing a few heads of big instances as representatives of fedi and trying to get them to sign NDAs? Shit like that?
Let’s focus on building affirmatively and consciously the community we want
This is literally the point of pre-emptive blocking. Meta is an existential threat to the quality of this place, period point blank.
People, individual people, built Fedi out of nothing. It’s our party, we quite like it, and we can pre-disinvite entities with an enormous track record of shitty behavior whenever we want.
If you want to interact with such entities and the typical user that comes with, by all means, find servers that federate. It will drive a netsplit, and that sucks, but it’s also working as intended.
I just hope SDF is on the right side of the split. Fuck Facebook and every single thing they stand for.
I searched this discussion for /mail/ and was surprised to see not one hit.
Defederating from Threads is analogous to refusing to accept mail from or deliver mail to Gmail, is it not?
As long as there’s no concern with Threads knocking SDF over due to outsized mass, I think it’s a bad move.
This analogy keeps being made but I am not convinced it is correct.
Any participant in a dynamic network can choose with whom to have relationships. That’s the point of a firewall or cloudflare or a million other security efforts… to prevent interactions which due to malice or accident would cause some harm to come to the local system. There is no obligation to participate and in fact with the fediverse it is specifically designed with defederation in mind.
The comparison has been made to email explaining the fediverse concept to new users. Most people know about email. But Usenet is much more apt, if you are familiar with that. Usenet had (has) similar concepts such as the way servers share, mirror and distribute content from others servers. There is a burden imposed on any given server according to the others it has communication with. If you never had the pleasure of being on Usenet, it was basically like email discussion lists where the inbox was public. But you still needed to have access to a server to read and post. Messages were sent in similar way to email but every server would retain a copy of messages prior to forwarding them on to a list of other servers. They would in this was percolate through the network. Every server had its own version of the history of usenet according to the choices of the admins and there was not central authority or main copy.
Usenet server admins exercised broad discretion deciding who they would have a relationship with and what they would accept. Nobody was every perfectly connected to everybody else for various reasons including: legality, morals, politics, technical, geography, taste and happenstance. Individual people, hosts that allowed too many bad users, problem communities, filetypes, topics of conversation… all kinds of things were blocked by admins. Some news servers were permissive and some were restrictive. Servers that were excessively permissive became hubs of spam, and thereby risked losing their relationships with other servers because other admins got too annoyed having to deal with it. And servers that were excessively restrictive had a hard time keeping users because you couldn’t really participate properly if unable to see a lot of groups and not seeing a lot of the traffic, plus your messages would not propagate for others to see. So it was a balancing act.
For the most part this is an analogy that isn’t helpful for a lot of people… But maybe on SDF there are some who can recall those days. I do not think the concept of blocking servers breaks the concept of the fediverse at all.
(I am still undecided on my opinion on the question but I think it is a legitimate possibility.)
As I said in the other thread: Would you want to federate with Reddit?
Google hasn’t actively tried to shutdown its competing email providers… Meta has (tried to purchase or shut down its competitors on multiple occasions). Why do you think they aren’t trying to do that this time?
I don’t understand the point of doing so preemptively. Just make a standard set of rules. Defederate when someone breaks the rules. Keep it simple. No point of sending the message of “there is no value in integrating with the fediverse if you’re a large corporation”. Much better to send a message of “if you continue to be a bad actor, you’ll lose out on the benefits of the fediverse”
The point would in part be to prevent them from pulling an Embrace, Extend, Extinguish like Google did with XMPP.
As somebody who’s been on the microblogging side of fedi for nearly 6 years, and who dicks around running a couple tiny instances and is chummy with a couple other sysops - I am 100% aboard the “will never federate with Meta, and may defederate with others who do, depending on how this goes” train.
Netsplits suck. But Meta is pure cancer, and sometimes amputation is necessary.
My opinion on this is to preemptively defederate as Meta has proven itself time and again to be a bad actor; they have proven willing manipulate their feeds and algorithms to induce rage based engagement and even though they wouldn’t be in control of the fediverse, they will still at the very least try to heavily influence it. If the fediverse wasn’t a possible threat to them, they wouldn’t have created an app for it and made current fediverse operators sign NDAs. Additionally, if we are complacent, they could start creating Lemmy style fediverse communities to gain control of that aspect of the fediverse as well.
