I don’t understand how you think not stopping a genocide is the same as aiding or committing a genocide.
If you really think those two things are the same dude, you got to look hard in the mirror.
Liberals: “We don’t need your votes anyway.” Also “Liberals please vote, don’t protest and don’t criticize Joe Biden or you’re helping Trump”
It’s not that they are ok with Trump. They are just unhappy with both candidates. With that being said I do plan on voting for the Biden because while I don’t agree with him on everything I know that he won’t turn the country into a fascist dictatorship like Trump. The fact that this asshole is still legally allowed to run is insane.
Jews need to check their privilege.
Did the first thread not work out the way ya wanted it to go?
https://lemmy.world/post/13670700
Reposting what I commented there:
Switching away from first past the post voting allows people to vote for who represents them best while still counting their vote against those they dont want to win. Just search for videos on FPTP voting if you want an explanation on how and why the spoilereffect exists that makes third parties not viable.
Electoral reform is possible in each individual state (for now), we dont need federal reform! Maine and Alaska have already passed electoral reform.
So what’s the hold up with the rest of the states? Consider starring a campaign to change how we vote in your own state! Force our representatives to compete with fresh outside ideas. We deserve the best representation, not excuses.
Nothings changed. This is still (IMO) the way forward. Who could possibly say no to more democracy?
Please, for the love of god, be good enough to vote for.
There’s a lot of nuance and discussion that is just ignored by online people regarding this discussion. I’m sick of the fighting.
Change your horrible voting system. FPTP is the root of all this craziness
and here you are ignoring nuance 😭
no one disagrees with you. no one is in a marriage blood pact with FPTP. people are trying to abolish FPTP but it’s taking time and definitely won’t be done within seven months. the pattern of commentators like you coming into a discussion saying “just do <the obvious>” is about as useless and meaningless as a vegan trying to brigade a barbecue subreddit, or telling a person struggling with gas payments to buy a tesla.
I have been saying this for years. I have written it on countless message boards throughout my time online.
There isn’t really any nuance to it. Change is hard, I understand. Doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try.
must not be loud and frequent enough since it hasn’t happened 🤷♀️ whatever would we do without you by all means continue
In other words, I should shut up?
genuinely just reconsider your strategy. you’re wrongly placing blame on the voters as though they have ever been given the option to fix their horrible voting system.
i stand by my comparison that it’s like you are telling a low income person struggling to finance gas to just buy a tesla.
I wish but not happening in a million years.
Both sides love it because it means they don’t actually have to make improvements to win over their base.
Maine and Alaska have implemented it, if memory serves.
Shh, silly facts! Almost like the youth trying to turn things around shouldnt be impeded right as theyre trying to come into power.
Multiple Democratic state parties and advocacy groups endorse Ranked Choice Voting, so shut the hell up with the both sides nonsense.
Multiple Democratic state parties also oppose it. The DC Democratic party for example voted against RCV last year, and that’s not an isolated case.
I think that’s an oversimplification. If they’re championing RCV, they’re doing a really lame job of it.
I mean, of the two states that actually have approved RCV for the presidential race, one is Dem and one is Republican. Republicans are actually one of the largest users of RCV, there’s a number of states where they use it for their primaries. They may be the most outwardly hostile to it, but let’s not pretend that Democrats are championing RCV.
Agreed. We’re getting some traction on this but it is absolutely not possible for this year’s presidential election. This is a long-term goal that should not affect your voting this year.
And next election you will say THE EXACT SAME THING. It’ll never be the “right time” unless it’s all already falling in your lap. Democrats suck because they completely lack initiative. They think that unless they control the House, Senate AND Presidential office that “it’s impossible to get anything done!”.
Nah, those high up are perfectly happy with this and you’re just feeding into it.
This is true and by design.
I mean…yeah? If 2028 rolls around and we don’t have ranked-choice voting (or similar) for federal elections, I will say the same thing. And I will be objectively right.
Don’t stop pushing for ranked choice. What you can do today is write to your representative about the Fair Representation Act, which includes provisions to require ranked choice voting (for congressional elections). That is a the natural next step. This is not an overnight process.
But let’s be real: politics does not move fast enough for anything we do today to affect this year’s presidential election. Honestly, if anyone tries to fundamentally change the election system this close to a presidential election, they are surely corrupt. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. If you wait for the whole world to change before taking a step, you’re going to be waiting your whole life.
“if things don’t change because no one changes them, then I’ll be right!”
You’re a fucking clown.
Those high up are happy, no one else is. Do u not see the disdain literally everywhere? And the largest (by far) generation the country had ever seen grabbed a hell of a stranglehold on our seats of power in government and labor institutions. The right time is nigh upon us. Its blind to deny it.
But both sides
Yes my butt is symmetrical with buttcheeks on both aides.
#ButtBothSides
Candidate 1: I’m going to kill all the ponies.
Candidate 2: I won’t do that, and will try to make ponies more affordable.
Leftist: “But that’s not good enough! I want a free pony. And a blowjob. I’m voting 3rd party”
Do keep in mind these aggressive purist Gatekeeping / no true Scot leftists are very often just right-wing astroturfers. It hits two birds with one stone: they make leftism obnoxious, they often muddy the waters of violence, and wedge-drive the Democratic coalition to get Trump elected.
Either that or they’re very young and naive.
Don’t fall for it. You’ll see more of this the closer the election gets.
i don’t believe you can prove anyone (not everyone, just one person) who doesn’t think biden is good enough is either right wing or “young and naive”
No but I can prove they’re short-sighted; and those two things go hand-in-hand. In my experience I’ve frankly yet to see someone older than like 22-years-old espouse such self-defeating beliefs and goals.
I can also prove that right-wing extremists engage in political astroturfing routinely and that according to investigative reporting these far-right groups intend to muddy the waters.
Taken from there, it takes very little ink (inductive reasoning) to connect the dots.
can prove they’re short-sighted;
how? what methodology is available to you to prove such an accusation?
what methodology is available to you to prove such an accusation?
If I may, a thing called logic.
- If your goal is to minimize genocide, both in Palestine and Ukraine.
- If your goal is to ensure that we don’t fall further into fascism.
- If the choices on the ballot in November are a constant, regardless of anything else that happens.
- If you understand the nature of entropy in that maintaining let alone building-upon a trillion-piece puzzle is exceedingly more taxing than smashing it.
- If other guy is significantly-worse for Ukrainians, Palestinians, US, and the World.
- If you understand the mathematical trend of FPTP and the Spoiler Effect.
… Then one understands the logical choice is voting for Biden and doing anything else from not voting, voting Republican, voting 3rd-party, writing-in – is utterly self-defeating and short-sighted to the aforementioned goals.
If you don’t understand these things, then yes, one might have built their ardent beliefs atop a house of cards.
i can believe the other guy is worse without believing its moral to help biden maintain power.
👏👏👏
biden will push us further into fascism just as he has for the past 50 years. voting for him does not, in fact, ensure we don’t fall further into fascism.
No, but voting for Trump or helping him win by hiding behind a 3rd party candidate will advance fascism guaranteed. But please, continue astroturfing this thread with your repeating, broken argument.
the spoiler effect is story telling.
Taken from there, it takes very little ink (inductive reasoning) to connect the dots.
this isn’t proof. it’s innuendo.
$5 say the “They should earn my vote” line is a favorite of right wing and Russian trolls a la 2018’s #WalkAway movement.
Oh, I’m not fooled (for the most part, anyway). I’m just giving the benefit of doubt and calling them out using their own arguments and trying to not make any assumptions or accusations.
The problem is they don’t often argue in good-faith. Usually deflection and gish-gallop are their MO. So be concise and be mindful of the bystander audience.
Oh, for sure. I never argue to change their minds, just to shut down whatever narrative they’re trying to spin for the bystander audience. I’ll usually play along with the gish-galloping as long as time allows but usually stop when they transition into sealioning.
bUt HeR eMAiLz!!!
wait . . . is that? . . no, yeah that’s right.
GOP Jesus approves.
Spot fucking on, but its that second group, the young and naive that make these points worth arguing and harping on about. Sometimes those of us whove been online our whole lives forget the indoctrinating power of the internet. Shit, thats what pushed me further and further left, and still does to this day.
And ur last sentence… oof… i know… brace yourselves, and kick up the counterefforts.
Great point - I don’t mean to disparage those newcomers to politics. We’ve all been there of course.
I guess I gate-kept a bit there myself, and my apologies for that.
No no no! I didn’t take it that way at all, just wanted to add the clarification i figured u left out.
I figured if u were gatekeeping against youth u wouldnt have even bothered to comment at all. Sorry if i sounded like i was putting down ur point for it, u were saying something i think we all could hear more on this platform. Esp as the tankies pretend that the presence of bad faith actors on lemmy trying to hand the election to sr. Racismo via non-voting/third party voting is not existent.
the tankies pretend that the presence of bad faith actors on lemmy trying to hand the election to sr. Racismo via non-voting/third party voting is not existent.
if it existed, why haven’t you ever produced any evidence of it?
Bc im not wasting my time on yall. Im not going to participate in what will either turn into a gush gallop or gaslighting. Uve got it in this thread. U got it all over hexbear and .ml.
Thanks for caring enough to follow tho 🥰
a claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and no one should believe your claims unless you support them.
Comments like this give me hope friend. Keep fighting the good fight :)
Aight im back to say, im rereading this thread and some of ur other comments above (about astroturfing leading the young esp) go so hard.
So me fight the good fight? You, you sir keep fighting the good fight. As in the present tense. As in u have been. Dont stop.
Solidarity to u and all other leftist speakers and activists seeking change by whichever means they know how…
Just leave some in the bank for when election season is upon us…
Aw thanks and likewise — comments like yours really help to shatter all the depression and gaslighting that gets spread and restores some semblance of sanity :)
And don’t worry about losing steam! I’m amped up for the election year and will only continue to ramp it up! I have frankly too many ideas to enhance my personal impact on the election and need to get better organized lol.
I feel like i dispense a lot of thank yous and encouragement to everyone else to keep it up. It feels nice to be on the receiving end so randomly. Thanks dude. Made me smile, for real <3
It’s a few of the astroturfers leading a bunch of the young and naive.
Fucking. Preach.
The leftist in this comment also makes sure to plug their ears nice and good if u tell them that the first candidate is financed by foreign powers literally hostile to anything u hold dear, a situation beyond unprecedented.
Voting is the least u can do politically, but it is still praxis, and absolutely necessary given the circumstances.
3rd party: “I can make big promises willy nilly because there is zero chance I’ll win and therefore won’t be held accountable”
Candidate 1: I will keep giving guns to the people killing ponies but I will feel bad about it and criticize them sometimes
Candidate 2: I will give the guns and not feel bad.
Leftist: hey can anyone just, you know, not help people kill ponies?
Centrist: omg I can’t believe you’re asking for so much from your candidates. Your ideological purity is the real enemy here. I bet you don’t even care about ponies
It’s called nuance and seeing the big picture, sweetie.
Mmmm, I absolutely love that centrist condescension, “sweetie”.
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Haha yeah a very nuanced and realistic portrayal of leftists. Obviously we just want free ponies and blowjobs. Preventing geno-what? Never heard of it
Edit. Star Trek profile pic? Remember when the federation gave weapons and aid to the dominion because it was politically convenient and the cardassians are worse anyway? No neither do I.
For a second there, I was willing to accept you might be arguing in good faith, but the personal attack you felt the need to tack on destroyed that benefit of doubt.
I am arguing in good faith, obviously. There was no personal attack. I’m sure you draw some distinction between pure morals (as in trek) and “real life” but I genuinely do not see how this is defensible. I’m sure you’re a nice person
There was no personal attack there.
Have you ever talked to someone irl? If so, did you do it without crying?
Candidate 2: I’m going to give guns and money to the person killing ponies but tell them they shouldn’t do it.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
Centrist: Noooo, you have to vote for the proxy pony killer who can’t use his position to do anything or else you’ll get a pony killer in power who’ll use his position to do everything.
Leftist: Either way ponies are going to be killed. Let’s try something different.
“Something different” here meaning “handing over the position to the worse of the two options”.
Or candidate 1:
I’m going to stop helping a different pony farmer from their neighbor who’s actively killing their staff and stealing their ponies, and says they’re entitled to their neighbor’s ponies and to kill their neighbors because they can, and no one can stop them.
I’m also going to withdraw from the neighborhood watch and patrol, and defund all pony riding training, also remove individual rights to enjoy the pony-verse as you’d desire, so you can only enjoy it my way (which is predisposed to enrich me at your expense).
I also endorse other bullying neighbors to take what they want, instead of defending our sovereignty on our own pony farms. And I absolutely support the full capitalization of the pony-verse, to include up to 80% of your visual range being adds (before inducing seizures), and the due to my sponsors’ demands I also will require you to pray to either me or Pony-Jesus only.
//
So, yeah. Let’s accept that both candidates aren’t perfect but one is a fucking monster and hates ponies.
Acting like Candidate 1 won’t do the same and worse
Acting like candidate 2 is at all a good option either.
Do y’all just, sincerely not understand what “lesser evil” means? Yes, the lesser evil is still bad. We know. That’s what “evil” means. Both options suck, one sticks measurably more, do you choose the one that is less bad.
None of these “Both sides!” Leftists ever seem to offer specific or workable alternatives. It’s always something vague like “Have our voices be heard, take back the country from the oligarchs!” And I feel that, but like, how? What specific candidate or action is going to prevent both from winning?
Would you rather get stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
I’d rather stab the person trying to stab me anywhere.
That’s not an option.
Would you rather get stabbed in the finger or stabbed in the eye?
The third option is to reject the United States and replace it with something that isn’t an oligarchy
Neither.
There is always other options, you just have to take them.
You literally can’t try something different, in this election. It’s physically impossible. Leftists should be channeling this energy to the next election, and building a viable candidate that truly meets their needs.
You said it so perfectly and I never realized it. “If you elect our guy, he won’t be able to do anything, but at least it’s better than if you elect the other guy. If you elect the other guy, somehow he’ll be able to do everything he wants. But vote for our impotent guy instead. It’s safe!”
Um what?
One follows the rules, and the other often doesn’t even think there are rules. The difference there isn’t hard to suss out. It’s like that joke about playing chess with a pigeon.
I want a guy who doesn’t think there are rules, and will protect ponies. Why isn’t that a possibility
Because not thinking there are rules into adulthood is a pretty self-absorbed trait, which usually doesn’t go along with things like empathy and compassion.
There aren’t rules. Trump is proof of that
A socialist with that same attitude towards rules, norms, and civility would be the ideal option. That isn’t possible under our system. However, a fascist with those views is possible.
And the neoliberal erosion of living standards will just make the fascists more appealing to normal people. So if the fascists don’t win in 2024 then they’ll win in the near future unless we have a massive expansion of the welfare state that helps median Americans, not just the incredibly poor
free pony and blowjob
Avasarala for president!
The poster is just “go fuck yourself”
Real strange way to make a point
But if you say you’re voting for who you actually believe in, and it’s not one of the two, you’re also “throwing your vote away” according to many. Anytime I see this all I see is blackmail. “Vote my way or bad things will happen”.
It’s not a choice, it’s coercion. One side actively threatens it and the other side passively threatens it. It’s all just threats if you don’t fall in line.
It’s not a choice, it’s coercion.
Math is coercion, I guess.
Humour and logic, keep your comments coming! Lately it felt like Lemmy was overrun by people arguing in bad faith.
their comment is bad faith: it intentionally misrepresents their interlocutor to score cheap rhetorical points.
Lemmy was setup by tankies. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel if you’re looking for morons to argue with on the internet. Kinda fun to dunk on them. Kinda lame to see them whine incessantly.
“Being practical” and “harm reduction” seem to also be coersion, too.
If my heart had its way, I’d be voting Peace and Freedom Party. But it doesn’t, so I’ll be voting for Joe Biden. And that is that.
Nobody, at least seriously, is threatening YOU to vote a specific way. The threat comes from one candidate specifically, of which our glorious 2 party system has confirmed will ONLY be one of those two. And he isn’t threatening YOU, but rather our entire way of life. So, go ahead and vote however you want. Just know the repercussions on the grand scale, and maybe be a little humble.
Funny how one side can do anything they want but the other side can at best “not be that guy”. Democratic impotence is intentional.
What exactly are you saying here now? You’re being intentionally vague
No I’m not. You lack reading comprehension. According the this very meme, R is able to bring the world to fascism but all D can do at best is “not be facists”. No argument for what good they’ll do. Just “well, we’re not facists…”
If you think the Biden admin has done nothing for you or the country, you’re just admitting you’re a low information voter. There are various bills, executive actions, judicial appointments. Pathetic, really, to take so little agency of your citizenship.
Its like that quote about an antisemite not needing to use logic or reason. The dems are bound to the system, bc thats the source of their power. The gop is not beholden to it bc democracy is failing them.
Dont forget, the boomers are fast dying out, covid kills reds at twice the rate of blues, and the younger generations swing increasingly further left. Our governement is still in the hands of dinosaurs. As they go extinct, u can attempt to implant ur own candidates, but that opportunity wont come under another trump win in November. And if your argument is, yeah but we need revolution, then u should be spending your time working on systems of mutual aid and direct action, and i guarantee u will have a much harder time doing so when more and more ppls rights are under threat by the day.
This is why communist/anarchist parties exist in neoliberal countries and participate in their electoral politics. To make life more bearable for everyone until “the moment” comes, and to make ot that much easier to pursue the avenues of mutual aid and direct action.
Its like that quote about an antisemite not needing to use logic or reason.
Sartre:
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
sartre is rolling in his grave that this is being used to defend democrats.
Agreed. We survived 4 years of trump, we can do it again.
And again, and again, and again, and again, and again, after project 2025
Tell that to the women in prison for having miscarriages.
That’s already happening? That’s more of an issue with the legislature and the recent Supreme Court ruling
My point being that saying “we survived four years of trump, we can handle another four” is extremely stupid, and ignores the very real damage that he did to many of us, and the very real damage that he will do if re-elected. It’s easy to say we can survive another four years of him if you’re a cishet white dude.
It’s not blackmail, it’s reality. No one is threatening you just explaining what’s going to happen.
Facts are blackmail. Only pleasant fictions are allowed.
Precisely, we go through this propagandistic scolding campaign every four years. It furthers the interests of the status quo. There are so many reasons to not vote for Biden in say, Florida, where there is absolutely no chance for him to win. We should be building solidarity with leftists and attempt to pull popular political discourse to the left and far away from the corporate demogogs that keep the two parties in power. Alas, liberals punch left because that’s not an easy binary thought. It is a destructive mentality.
I won’t be voting for Biden in my state (not Florida) because he stands no chance to win here. So why should I back a genocidal horse who will lose here anyways? Fuck Trump and fuck Biden. I will vote for Claudia De la Cruz or Cornell West here. Their voices matter and should get more air time, but corporate america controls the media and the conversation. Hence why this shame scolding propaganda sits here.
People who don’t want Trump in office outnumber people who will vote this year. If everyone voted, Biden would have a chance in every state
Only propagandists or the politically ignorant would say that.
Biden has a chance in every state.
Consistently & nationwide polling has been off by 9+ points in the Democrats favor since Roe V. Wade was overturned.
im very excited for west, but can you pitch me on de la cruz?
If Biden loses, that’s his and the DNC’s loss. It’s up to them to field a candidate that people want to vote for. It’s not up to the voters to go along with whatever the DNC feels like they want. I will be voting Biden because it’s too important. If he loses, I will blame him for running, not the voters. The polling was clear, undeclared Democrat polled much higher than Biden, but for some reason he has main character complex and thought he was the only one that could beat Trump when in reality he might be the only person that can lose to Trump.
it sounds like we’re in exact alignment with each other on this topic and i’m wondering what your response is to the inevitable finger pointing at leftist from liberals after the election.
also: i’d like to hear your thoughts on the group think talking point that a protest vote against biden is a vote for trump.
it sounds like we’re in exact alignment with each other on this topic and i’m wondering what your response is to the inevitable finger pointing at leftist from liberals after the election.
That’s what I’ve been talking about in this thread. It’s up to the party to look inward and realize why they failed and field a better candidate. If they want to point to the finger else where they’re just going to pick more losing candidates.
i’d like to hear your thoughts on the group think talking point that a protest vote against biden is a vote for trump.
It’s a cop out. You vote for things. If you vote for say a third party then it’s exactly that, you voted for a third party you didn’t vote for Trump. It’s up to the party to win your votes.
If Biden loses, that’s his and the DNC’s loss.
Oh, and also the loss of all of the rest of us who will suffer under another Trump administration.
But fuck the poor, minorities, LGBT folk. We have to show the DNC how principled we are by making sure a fascist is elected!
It’s not up to the voters to go along with whatever the DNC feels like they want.
It’s up to the voters to make an informed fucking choice. That’s the point of citizenship. Voting isn’t a fucking popularity contest, it’s a civic duty.
Lmao Bidens administration has expanded trumps border cages, continued “building the wall”, contributed billions of dollars in planes, bombs and guns to Israel that he knew explicitly were being used to bomb children(and states that they don’t believe that they are going too far), defunded UNRWA, tried to pass a “ceasefire” that would permanently defund all Palestinian organizations if those organizations supported ICC proceedings against Israel, demonized undocumented workers on live tv, made record expansions to police budgets, took away rail workers right to strike permanently, done nothing to ensure LGBT or minority rights, or women’s rights for that matter, left DeJoy in after he purposefully gutted the USPS, expanded the trade war and maintained trump era blockades on socialist countries (including restricting humanitarian aid from going to Cuba and refusing to remove them from the state sponsors of terror list…) the list literally goes on as long as I feel like typing and then some.,
He’s done some good, too. expanding the powers of the NLRB was a good step, capping insulin prices for Medicare recipients, allowed negotiations on drug prices for Medicare, funded the biggest climate package in US history (less than 10% of what China puts towards climate mitigation each year of course), put considerable money towards public transit and rail expansion, this list will go on for a while too if I wanted to keep typing, but to say that hes done much for minorities, the poor, or LGBT persons is just ridiculous.
He is, as he said during his previous campaign, trying to continue the status quo. He’s not trying to massively shake things up nor to make them better. He thinks things are working pretty well as it is. He keeps touting this economy as if most workers aren’t still struggling to pay their bills, as if most americans still don’t have more than $500 in the bank, as if education isn’t collapsing under the austerity measures previous administrations have instituted.
Our choice is maintenance of the status quo or further descent into fascism. And yes, this country in many ways is a fascist nation.
Blaming people for having consciences is not doing anything to convince anyone to vote for him, it just further alienates those most vulnerable among the citizenry who see that their lives have in no way meaningfully improved over the last 4 years.
Bullshit. The OP literally said they’ll vote for Biden because their principles demand it. They’re saying that if Biden fails it is because he couldn’t bring the votes of others. Your arguments are straw man horse shit.
Bullshit. The OP literally said they’ll vote for Biden because their principles demand it.
How the fuck does that at all address the point I was making?
If Biden loses, that’s the loss of just about everyone who isn’t a right-wing straight cis white male Christian. It’s not “Oh, it’s just the big meanies in the DNC :( who will lose because I think purity tests in the name of losing to fascists are just a Legitimate Choice™”. It’s. Us.
I’ll be doing my civic duty by not voting. Voting is supposed to be about picking the candidate I want. Well, I don’t want either of these two candidates, and I won’t stand for the DNC rubbing its greedy little fingers together in the background, making deals and concessions with whomever they have to in order to push their candidate of choice.
Biden has done some good things. Honestly more than I expected. This does not now, nor has it ever, and nor will it ever give the DNC carte blanche to manipulate the primaries from the shadows to choose their preferred candidate to represent the party in a wide-open field of two people once every four years.
You want someone to blame for the fact that you’re all sweating bullets about how this election turns out? Look to the DNC when you want to point fingers, not the people who they’re trying to sucker into voting for the damage control option every four years.
“Please don’t blame me for standing by as fascists ascend to power, I don’t want to take responsibility for my actions”
“Please don’t blame me for standing by as fascists ascend to power, I don’t want to take responsibility for my actions”
He’s not the one standing by. It’s the DNC that chose the only candidate that could lose to Trump because they feel he is entitled to it. Just like they chose Hillary in 2016 because it was “her time.” These are losses brought on by themselves that affects everyone. Don’t be mad at the voters, be mad at the party that is struggling to beat an insurrectionist with multiple ongoing criminal court cases.
Just like they chose Hillary in 2016 because it was “her time.”
… do you not remember that Hillary was elected in the primary?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Signed, a 2016 and 2020 Bernie voter.
Yes, I remember the super delegates that they got rid of because they were used to tip the scales and the DNC giving Hillary the debate questions before the debates so she could be extra prepared.
Also a 2016 and 2020 Bernie voter and donor.
Yes, I remember the super delegates that they got rid of because they were used to tip the scales
Clearly you don’t remember, since Hillary won the greater number of elected delegates, and the ‘Super Delegates’ only ended up relevant as a Hail Mary pass for the Bernie campaign.
Voting is about using your power as a citizen to improve the country
Then don’t fucking complain when people do it.
Then don’t fucking complain when people do it.
Putting fascists in power is improving the country? Wow. This is some brave new form of leftism, I guess, that I’m just too right-wing to understand.
Making white liberals uncomfortable enough to bring them to the table to negotiate by threatening not to cast a ballot for them is certainly improving things.
Fucking lmao.
Voting is a chess move, not a love letter, although I doubt you’re actually a US citizen.
I certainly hope you aren’t a minority that will lose their citizenship & be exiled under Trump’s Project 2025.
I’m not the Chess Master. I’m a pawn. I’m sacrificed and threatened and told if I don’t do what I need to all the time always then the other side wins.
So I’m not going to move the way I’m told until I get something I want.
I’m a minority setting myself on fire every election. This time I’m inclined to have others burn with me.
Eh, you’re most likely simply lazy and looking for excuses. You weren’t going to vote anyway.
This is what privilege looks like, people.
So you want them to vote for someone they don’t like just because it’s who the party picked? That’s what privilege looks like.
Spoken like someone from a place of privilege. Congrats.
Every election is “the worst election ever where we need everyone to come together and support our hand-picked candidate against their hand-picked candidate”. When do you get to vote your conscience?
When do I vote in a manner representative of who I am as a minority?
When will the ship not be sinking so I can choose someone who actually represents me?
Why is it my responsibility to vote for you when you don’t care about me?
“I know we didn’t do anything for you again these past 4 years, but if you don’t get behind us then it’s going to be bad!”
It already is bad. If you don’t realize that you sound like the privileged one.
Sometimes you have to think about other people and not just yourself.
Marginalized people get extra fucked by “allowing” the even worse candidate to win.
“When do I get to think about me when I vote?”
“Stop thinking about just yourself and think about other people.”
Are you even paying attention to the conversation or am I trying to reason with a recording? Is it any wonder why I don’t feel heard time and time again to the point where I don’t want to do what I’m told?
It’s zero sympathy. I have a duty to get shafted by the political system again for the promise that someday, somehow, something will work out for me.
No thanks, friend.
Then suffer even more I guess and by extension others…
It’s up to the voters to make an informed fucking choice. That’s the point of citizenship. Voting isn’t a fucking popularity contest, it’s a civic duty.
Exactly. So don’t put the blame on the voters if the DNC can’t put up a candidate the voters actually want to vote for. It’s the voters job to pick who they want to vote for, it’s not the voters job to vote for whomever the DNC tells them to vote for. You have the burden of responsibility backward.
So don’t put the blame on the voters if the DNC can’t put up a candidate the voters actually want to vote for. It’s the voters job to pick who they want to vote for, it’s not the voters job to vote for whomever the DNC tells them to vote for. You have the burden of responsibility backward.
So let me get this straight: it’s the DNC’s responsibility to make sure that the winner of the primary DOESN’T get the nomination, because the voters don’t want him, despite having voted for him?
Believe it or not, most people aren’t interested in another candidate. “Generic Democrat Who I Can Project All My Views On” outperforms Biden, but no one who is actually running does.
DNC actively subverted the primary process this year, so no, the results of this election are 100% on Biden (and his unappealing candidacy).
Yeah, remember when NH made sure Biden was the only guy on the ballot, and he still lost?
No, actually I remember Biden fumbling right out of the gate by not even doing the minimum to register in NH.
I also remember his admin working with the DNC to contact state committees asking them to cancel primaries outright, which several did. Very cool, very democratic.
For that matter, Biden also seemed content to nap in his bunker instead of engage with other primary candidates to promote his ideas. He seems to be leaning quite heavily on the strategy of “not trump” will be enough for him. Pretty irrespinsible if you ask me, considering his claims of democracy being on the line. Why can’t Biden make his case?
So let me get this straight: it’s the DNC’s responsibility to make sure that the winner of the primary DOESN’T get the nomination, because the voters don’t want him, despite having voted for him?
It’s the DNS’s responsibility to put pressure on the candidate that wasn’t sure if they were going to run to not run because the polls showed him getting beat. It’s also their responsibility to not change the primaries to heavily favor one candidate like making South Carolina (the place where Biden’s luck in 2019 changed) the first official primary.
but no one who is actually running does.
And that is also the DNC’s problem. They didn’t put forth a viable candidate in the primaries despite all the polling suggesting they should.
It’s the DNS’s responsibility to put pressure on the candidate that wasn’t sure if they were going to run to not run because the polls showed him getting beat.
So now it is the DNC’s responsibility to put pressure on the scales to change the candidate…
It’s also their responsibility to not change the primaries to heavily favor one candidate like making South Carolina (the place where Biden’s luck in 2019 changed) the first official primary.
… except when it’s not? Very coherent, 10/10 worldview.
And that is also the DNC’s problem. They didn’t put forth a viable candidate in the primaries despite all the polling suggesting they should.
“They didn’t put forth”
Tell me you don’t understand primaries without telling me you don’t understand primaries. Not to mention that explicitly contradicts your previous point about not wanting the DNC to pick the candidates. Jesus fucking Christ. We’re done here.
Here let me point out the parts you seemed to have missed:
not run because the polls showed him getting beat.
not change the primaries to heavily favor one candidate
despite all the polling suggesting they should
The polls showed they shouldn’t favor the candidate they did. They chose against what was obvious instead of encouraging others to run they picked their favored candidate before it even started.
“They didn’t put forth”
You’re right, the wording there isn’t correct. It should be that they didn’t encourage others to run.
We’re done here.
Unfortunately it appears the voters are thinking the same thing. That’s why it’s the party’s responsibility field the best candidate.
Jesus fucking Christ. We’re done here.
If the voters are too stupid to vote against Trump by voting for Biden, that is on them.
Biden hasn’t done anything to screw over US citizens. Yes, he continues some shitty foreign policies by supporting Israel and hasn’t achieved as much as he wanted because of GOP obstruction, but he has done some positive stuff.
Trump never did anything positive at all, and tried to overthrow the government.
Real tough choice there!
If the voters are too stupid to vote against Trump by voting for Biden, that is on them.
Nope. That’s on the candidate.
Real tough choice there!
I mean, I agree with you. It’s an obvious choice and I can’t put my mind in the headspace of anyone that can vote for Trump at this point. Usually I can at least understand the opposition’s point of view. I will definitely be voting for Biden… However, that doesn’t change the fact that it is up to the party and the candidate to earn the votes, it’s not up to the voters to cover for the party.
Nope. That’s on the candidate.
Anything but citizens accepting responsibility for their actions in a democracy. ANYTHING but that!
There is nothing saying a voter has to vote or that a candidate has to run. We both voluntarily take part in this transaction and it’s up to the candidate to earn the votes of the voters.
There is nothing saying a voter has to vote
No, there isn’t.
But a voter not voting is still making a choice, and they are responsible for that choice.
The candidates aren’t lords, and we aren’t peasants. In a republic, CITIZENS are responsible for who they vote OR DON’T VOTE for.
There’s no choice you can make where you lack responsibility. Whatever happens - it is our fault as citizens. If you can answer to your conscience in the case of a Trump presidency… well, gods help you, because I can’t.
Biden appeals to most of the Democratic voters, which is why he is their candidate and why he won in 2020.
Unaffiliated voters expecting him to appeal to them specifically is on those voters, not the Dems.
Unaffiliated voters expecting him to appeal to them specifically is on those voters, not the Dems.
Except if the Democrats want to win.
So don’t appeal to the Dem party voters, appeal to other people who have an extremely wide variety of expectations that apparently don’t align with the Dems.
Sound logic!
It’s like people didn’t notice how the GOP shrank down to core fanatics and dems won by expanding the tent in their own party.
Now these people think the same level of ideological compromise that should define congress apparently has no place in their own party.
NEWSFLASH: if you refuse to participate unless your ideological purity test is met, you should prob go join the tea party.
Get over it and grow up. A capable, national political party will clearly include people other than you, viewpoints other than yours, and you won’t always get what you want.
Work with people instead of working selfishly against everyone not 100% aligned with your own mental utopia. Your purity test is not a reason to flip the table.
Biden hasn’t done anything to screw over US citizens.
you’re either young or misinformed: google up “don’t ask, don’t tell”; “defense of marriage act” or “anita hill” for his biggest blunders that have directly screwed over many americans.
Sorry that I didn’t make it clear I was speaking about his time as president, since he is running for reelection as president. Your point that nobody can ever be forgiven for doing things wrong in the past is absolutely the best logical action.
Why vote for someone who had done the right things for the past couple decades just because their opponent tried to overthrow the government?
By your logic we should forgive trump too because his crimes were also in the past and he has made greater public spectacle to make up for his past than Biden has attempted for fear of pissing off aipac.
But forgive me; his desire to run despite poll after poll showing that’s he’s likeability is behind trump but still refusing to to step aside because his own desire to be president is more important to him than letting the Democrats run on a better candidate is somehow ok in your book
That isn’t my logic. That is you making a strawman.
But maybe if fascism wins this time, we’ll magically get a left-wing government afterwards? It’s like a pendulum!
Go tell Biden to stop supporting Genocide instead of trying to apologize for it.
Like I said months ago, he stops the Genocide or he will lose.
I’m childish enough that I’m irritated at my comment here being removed. Here’s the comment, which also applies to this meme:
You know that weak support for Hindenburg’s party was what let Hitler come to power, right?
Not that I agree that Biden is a lesser evil, but even within those parameters, there’s an absolutely glaring flaw in bringing up Nazi Germany while making the case that voting for the lesser evil is a bad idea
And when he asked for clarification:
My point is that the holocaust that gave rise to Niemöller’s quote in the first place happened because of weakened resistance from the SPD (the establishment left), which wasn’t getting support from the far-left of its day because it wasn’t left enough. When as a result the fascist party gained control, it put all the far-left people in camps, outlawed the SPD, and began killing people by the millions. Which in retrospect made the complaint that the establishment left wasn’t left enough to support, even against literal Hitler, seem short sighted.
Mod banned me. 🙂
Lmao. LinkOpensChest.wav is constantly going on about how mods are persecuting him. How ironic.
The rule that I was banned under was:
- No defending oppressive systems such as capitalism or the US “democracy.”
I can’t even tell whether to complain that it’s weird to tell me I can’t defend democracy, or that it’s weird to call “it’s bad to let the Nazis come to power” a pro-system-of-oppression viewpoint.
(I mean, I get it. I think it’s safe to say that the real reason for the ban is neither of those things. I’m gonna let it go and move on with my day.)
“Not supporting the rise of Hitler is literally fascism. After Hitler, our turn!”
I got banned from World News (apparently the .ml instance) for calling out russian talking points being used for this end.
Its not just calls for not voting, either. The other they love to stan is voting third party and pretending the spoiler effect doesnt exist.
A lot of the lemmy.ml subs are very explicitly one-viewpoint subs; the mods will take out comments which advance arguments they don’t like. It is a reason I don’t bother with them much.
I mean, it makes sense; the administrators argue for explicitly totalitarian states like Russia or China, so it makes sense they’d use the same sort of approach to discourse under their own purview. I am curious what their viewpoint would be if their local government showed up at their door and started treating them like Russia or China treat their social media; I think there’s a certain pick-me viewpoint like “obviously I would be one of the good and loyal ones and they’d leave me alone,” but I don’t think that is how it would work out.
Preach, comrade, preach.
All this gives actual leftist thought a bad name.
I want a fucking classless, cashless, stateless society. You cant get further away from that than china and russia, and u will certainly get further away if the man in the oval office works for one of the two.
Like it or not, neoliberal politics arent just going to go away worldwide, and being ignorant of the geopolitical consequences of our elections doesnt mean that ur somehow a magical snowflake that enilightened everyone by “not endorsing” a candidate by refusing to fill in a box next the name thats not trying to sell the country youre a part of, whether u like it or not, away.
It’s all related to storytelling, I think.
We love the underdog who was beaten so badly that they finally bit back, and won.
But generally that’s not how reality works. Most revolutions are preceded by a weakening of the authoritarian systems which were then overthrown, not an intensification of their repressive efficiency.
It’s tempting for many, thus, to look at a worsening situation and feel optimistic about it - “If things just get a little worse, then EVERYONE will finally have enough!” But as North Korea shows, there’s not much of a bottom to the level of suffering humans are willing to endure. The correct move is to support the candidates which inflict the least harm and most enable independent organization for more radical change.
Regardless of whether you believe in reform or revolution, making things worse is not the path there.
Exactly. i remember trying to make this point to tankies on lemmy sometime ago. Does the DPRK, china, russia, saudi arabia seem closer to revolution than us? Really? Bc our comrades in revolution or otherwise are going to be the most oppressed in society who stand to lose the most from a falling apart of the existing sociopolitical order.
All leftists should be united in furthering the aims of solidarity, weakening of hierarchy, and redistribution of wealth. Why should I, as someone who wants a cashless society, stand opposed to a decrease in wealth inequality? Why should I stand opposed to any amount of upward mobility from the downtrodden (read: the 99.99% of us)? I want justice and equity. Im not going to be upset when a coworker gets a raise, I will argue that not only do the rest of us deserve one to, but we all, including the first coworker, deserve more! Anything to even the playing field, doubly so if it recruits my peers to our side.
Enjoying reading ur takes, btw, on the whole.
Thanks. Sometimes I don’t feel ‘left’ enough, but ultimately, my sympathies are with those who want something better than this fucking hellworld. I just don’t want to splatter our metaphorical brains all over the walls in the process and hand power back to even shittier oppressors.
Lifes weird. I was having a great convo on this topic the other day with an anarchist (an actual one, that is). Im not an anarchist, i dont think, but i cant help it if i think much of their means are worth pursuing and working with. Their willingness to envision a utopia is radical an necessary, and the utopia they envision is close to what i imagine.
So in short, im “somehwhere” (gestures vaguely) off on the far left deep end, but i dont really care to narrow it down as much as pursue more of those means which i think benefit us all.
At the same time, this is fucking murica. We diverse. I work with all sorts of ppl that i get on with, and my overall goal in this world is to push everyone i can leftward somehow. Will they end up as far left as me? Lol, not answering that. But ive gotten righties to admit that insurance companies should he done away with, that single payer healthcare is the way, and even that trans folk just want to be left alone and, under single payer, deserve their healthcare needs (hormones, surgery, etc.) taken care of just as much as “we” (sorry, work is cisnormative) need ours. Its about reframing the issues so ppl see that we (all us poors) have a single common enemy that is never any of the ppl walking among us.
Youre not left enough? Cool, so u acknowledge it (/s :p). Honestly, it seems we agree on plenty, and ur on the same side when it comes to the election bs we’re putting up with. Cool, clearly, to me, that means we have mutual goals we can work together on and not impede each others progress on. If in the future we disagree, we will have already fostered the ability to talk to each other in friendly non combative terms and can bridge those gaps then.
If u dont believe in a classless, cashless, stateless society the way I do and I put u down as not left enough or as a lib, how can i hope to achieve that end? i propose instead mutual aid. Ill work with u so Status Quo Joe wins his stupid election that threatens us all, and after thats done, we can discuss what next movements need be done. Will it be convincing u of my ends then? Prolly not. But i can bet that youd likely be down for supporting candidates that want election reform and introduce (i.e.) ranked choice voting, and i think youd agree that that would take both of us closer to the ends we each seek- just like the actual anarchists and myself.
Solidarity, comrade. Solidarity.
