I literally do blame the Democrats for Trump, and if you don’t, you weren’t paying attention.
Plenty of us were critiquing Clinton’s campaign on those merits and were consistently talked down to in shocker the same way we’re being talked down to now. Shocker, she lost. I remember saying a few weeks before the election “We’re about to get Brexited.” I put my vote down for Clinton, because Trump is fucking insane, and that was clear before he was President. It was clear in the fucking 1980’s.
Being able to critique our leaders is supposed to be what is the difference between us and conservative voters. They’re the cult who unquestioningly believes all the bullshit that comes out of Trump’s mouth and diapers. I find it weird that people think we should be more like them in regards to our leaders like that would be a good thing.
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People attribute a lot more competence to the DNC then they’ve really demonstrated.
Like yeah HRC might have legitimately thought that way about Trump, but if her own campaigning didn’t win the election for herself suggesting it’s what put Trump over the finish line or even that it was of any significant contribution is pretty disingenuous.
Not to mention how the DNC and HRC aren’t able to mind control voters, like 99% of attempts to make Trump into the DNC boogeyman’s fault ignore the choice voters made to vote for him or to just not vote for Clinton, and the “shoved Clinton down our throats” narrative is pretty racist since it basically casts Clinton’s primary win through significant support by the black and poc vote as illegitimate.
We almost had a double down on that shit in 2020 but the “low information voter” dog whistlers just decided to blame everything on Clyburn this time.
I mean, I wouldn’t really say my critique is that they’re “competent.”
I would say elevating someone like Trump because you think it’s an easy win falls under “incompetent.”
Clinton isn’t the only reason he won, but acting like her campaign didn’t have an impact on Trump, and that her campaign centering him isn’t also part of why he ended up the nominee is acting like she never had any influence or impact at all, is also not true.
Clinton’s campaign literally had press access and so to act like her campaign didn’t influence what the media discussed is also brazenly ignoring what happened. Did she make Trump President? No. Did she give him way more opportunity to win than he would have had otherwise? Yes.
You don’t have to be competent for that.
The dnc should have let Bernie Sanders become the nominatee like the voters wanted, instead of rigging the primary for Hillary.
This, NEVER rig the Primary if you can’t rig the General
I voted for Bernie in the primary, and I wanted him to win. I think the DNC was shady but I was under the impression that the voters DID choose Hillary.
I remember looking at which areas in MA went to Hillary, it was most of the non-rural ones.
The DNC favored Hillary over a guy who wasn’t even a Democrat, which shouldn’t really have been a surprise. Regardless of the DNC shenanigans the voters still could have choosen Bernie, they just didn’t.
It’s been adjudicated enough. Bernie was popular among the voters but Hillary moreso.
He had a second chance in 2020 and the advantages that came with being the frontrunner early on. Still lost.
Then all the selfish pieces of shit who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries can elect him in 2024 all on their own.
Yeah they’re already planning on it. They’re not gonna waste time on people who will be forever litigating something that was 3 election cycles ago. Most Bernie supporters voted for Hillary, just like he asked them to. Wonder who he’ll support this time.
Yeah they’re already planning on it.
Great. Best of luck. Don’t blame us when Biden loses.
The irony is, this would have worked if she wasn’t Hillary
The real irony is she actually won, but because of poor campaigning, lost three major Democratic strongholds in the EC vote.
We just don’t pay attention to the popular vote here in the US.
Okay. Blame them all you want, just don’t stay home on Election Day. VOTE against Donald Trump as he’s the more immediate problem, then we demand voting reform…
No.
You sound like a reasonable member of society…
When self proclaimed “reasonable” people insist the only way to protect democracy is to act like it’s broken I don’t think that measure is useful. If you want to claim democracy is worth defending then I should be able to exercise the benefits of that democracy. But if you’re telling me I’m a bad person for doing that I have to ask you, a “reasonable” member of society, what benefit is democracy serving?
I mean, my post is only entirely about people who immediately make such an assumption simply because I’m bothering to criqitue.
Why don’t you get your head out of your ass and ask me, or check any number of numerous comments in here where I said I’m voting for Democrats because I literally don’t have a choice.
But sure, all you fucking idiots coming in here and saying this shit fifty times isn’t exactly what I’m talking about.
If we keep trump out but do nothing else, we’ve only delayed a fascistic movement reaching the white house, not defeated it.
Biden needs to put forward actual policies that address the conditions that are fostering the violent fascistic rhetoric, not just so that he can win in November but so that we aren’t dealing with a growing nationalism problem for the next cycle.
The people who are criticizing Biden now desperately want him to succeed by these measures, but don’t believe he’s yet done enough. Maybe if we were having this debate a month out from election day, then we should be panicked about the electoral calculus; but he has ample (or at least some) time to address the concerns being raised here. In a non-incumbent cycle, a primary would help refine the policy agenda for the general. So far all we’ve gotten is “we have to keep trump out”.
That is not a winning agenda (no matter how true it is). It didn’t work in 2016, and it likely won’t work now. Biden needs something tangible to campaign on, and right now it’s not clear that he has one.
They plan on doing the same thing they did in 2016. Beat voters over the head with “how great of a job we’re doing” while ignoring voters real concerns, talking down to them, and generally leaning on “if you don’t vote for us, you’ll end up with a fascist who wants to kill you.” Which in itself certainly feels like a threat. “We can skip the country to escape, you can’t, better vote for us!” It’s downright abusive and it has an unfortunately good chance at catching up with them this election and the only people who will pay are the US citizens.
Still voting for Biden anway. Don’t really have a choice if I don’t want fascism. Just don’t like being bullied into it by the people I’m voting for while they smugly ignore my legitimate concerns.
I don’t have a problem with people critiquing Democrats, I have a problem with them arguing that voting for democrats is bad.
Trump won because he embraced the “fuck it all” voters.
… and there are a lot of those.
I’d like to see Biden address them, and he probably already did, we just didn’t hear about it because the media turned down his microphone years ago. He needs to show his balls on TV to get attention.
Hubris was a factor, but it pales in comparison to the furor of the conservative voter base after 8 years of that brown feller.
I’ll keep this advice in mind as I ponder what possible situation I could be in where it would be beneficial to know. Maybe if I decide to run for president?
Regardless of your opinion many of your responses are abusive and break community rules.
Anger and frustration over the political climate in the US is understandable but for someone who’s almost 50 you still need to work on your self control.
If you can’t engage in civil discourse then don’t reply to people, you only hurt your own cause.
Yes!
Next up; How I spilled my Pepsi and why I blame coke.
Critiquing Biden is not an endorsement of trump
Damn if lemmy.world could read, I’d put that on a shirt 🥲
Voters =/= DNC though
We got Trump because Clinton was largely uninspiring. She made herself this bland neolib that nobody actually wanted to vote for and then mocked Trump as a non threat.
Everything you said is true but I personally think the real reason it happened was because Clinton was a bad pitch and she would’ve lost to most Republicans at the time.
They should’ve gone with Bernie just that simple
She literally ran the same year as Jeb “Please Clap” Bush, and this was after a stint at Secretary of State where she had to do an “apology tour” for spying on other nations.
People were fed up with political dynasties that year, and the fact that the Democrats couldn’t read the room is why they lost.
The DNC literally hid behind being a private club to justify putting their finger on the scale for Clinton.
What’s that old saying? “If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts; if you have the law on your side, pound the law; if you have neither the facts nor the law, pound the table.”
https://observer.com/2017/05/dnc-lawsuit-presidential-primaries-bernie-sanders-supporters/
But here, where you have a party that’s saying, We’re gonna, you know, choose our standard bearer, and we’re gonna follow these general rules of the road, which we are voluntarily deciding, we could have – and we could have voluntarily decided that, look, we’re gonna go into back rooms like they used to and smoke cigars and pick the candidate that way. That’s not the way it was done. But they could have. And that would have also been their right, and it would drag the COurt well into party politics, internal party politics to answer those questions.
Here is the Democrats pounding the law that the DNC is a private club, so nobody can say their own rules are fair but them. They never argued the facts about whether or not it was rigged, because they didn’t have facts to support that.
But the DNC didn’t care about the primary votes and shoved her in because “we need a female president” or some shit.
I genuinely believe your average person both wants a female president and badly does not want it to be Hillary.
Some More News made a really good point: If we can’t call out our own guy without being told we’re helping the other guy, how is that… good?
Who’s saying it’s good? First of all, there is no “your own guy”. You don’t have a guy. There is no “your own guy” anywhere here.
Not helping “the other guy” is an indispensable condition in maybe getting the “this guy” to acknowledge that the whole thing is not working and to stop pretending this is buisness as usual as opposed to a slow moving coup that needs deep reform to prevent.
I don’t understand how these conversations are the same as in 2016, or in 2001, for that matter. In Germany it took some minor electoral increases and a leaked mention of “mass deportations” and they set off thousands of marches country-wide, involving hundreds of thousands of people. Trump is openly talking about mass deportations to an adoring following, Stephen Miller is planning mass concentration camps and Texas is actively trying to kill migrants.
And we’re talking about whether it’s ok to be more or less rough with what you say of Biden online.
I say this from a place of profound worry and fear. What the hell, man?
I totally get it. Trump is evil and we need to elect Biden. And that being too hard on Biden or saying “I’m not gonna vote” is being incredibly risky with the lives of the most vulnerable among us.
But there is something deeply wrong with our system if it allowed things to get to this point. Ever since I became politically aware in the 90s the Republicans have been a threat to rights and life. When is that gonna end so we can have a real conversation?
It’ll probably never feel like it actually ended, the kind of tectonic shift that would feel like a concise end to the days when we have to prioritise safeguarding our rights over holding whoever’s in the watchtower accountable for their mistakes would take something like everyone currently in political leadership going thanos snap
Yes. There is.
Holy crap, are people only realizing this now? This is endtimes stuff. Fall-of-the-Roman-Empire stuff. This is the period people will read about in history books about when the era of the last Cold War superpower ended and the post-liberal democracy era started.
This ends when the US passes a new Constitution. If you’re very, very lucky there won’t be a massive violent conflict, a full-on dictatorship or a Mad Max-style postapocalypse to go through first.
It’s the boiling frog that I can’t get over. The fact that people are still talking like this is an election cycle. It’s not. You can’t have an election cycle with just one candidate when the other guy is actively running for supreme fascist ruler. There is no working democracy in the US, and given the state of the GOP there won’t be one again until the US gives itself some form of multiparty parliamentarism, or at least a heavily reformed electoral system.
If the conversation is not in these terms… well, see my “worry and fear” comment above.
I think I’m further along than you are, because I remember being terrified like that. Now I’m resigned to it, and planning for a time when I might have to feed myself and help around my community. And reading a lot of history to help with the idea of falling empires being a bad thing.
Still vote. It’s better than the alternative. But this is the end times and things are changing faster than our government is capable of dealing with.
Fucking “interesting times.”
Okay, but it’s not the fall that’s a problem. Empires end all the time.
It’s what comes in between the fall and the next thing.
Because it can be a consensus that things need to change and a rational breakdown of how. That’s more or less how it went last time for the US. That happens. That’s an option.
Or it can be a big messy fight, which is more or less how that went immediately after that for the US.
Or it can be total domination from the fascists, at which point it’s no longer a US problem and one starts wondering if there is a “next thing” at all.
I’m sorry to be the bearer of even more bad news, but hitting rock bottom is a lot of work. You don’t get to relax and enjoy the ride, I’m afraid.
I’m not worried. I’m sure you’ll get there. You can’t keep this up.
Oh, you can. For decades. Because if you don’t, a time will come when you don’t get a choice at all, and that can last for decades, too.
And no, I won’t get over it. The more disinterest and lack of urgency I see from people the less I get over it, in fact.
I think there’s a lack of remembered trauma, perhaps. It certainly doesn’t sink in to many Americans. That’s why the Germans immediately went out to protest, but the American frog is calmly simmering. You do you, but I find it irresponsible to keep everybody else in the splash zone.
In any case, I think the question has been answered.
Ah, yes, the fallacy where the Republicans are the de facto winners and the election is only up to what the Democrats do.
I mean, yeah, they ran a mediocre campaign, but there is a difference between “critiquing our leaders” and literally campaigning against them, and leftist in general have a hard, hard, HARD time with that one. Critique is for when you’re in power. You analize, you apply your newfound political power to create pressure, you postmortem what went wrong. Campaigns are for winning.
And every year we’re told it’s “not the time to critique the Democrats” because its “too close to an election.”
Dude, I’m pushing fucking fifty and this has been every year of my fucking life with this “this is not the time for critique” shit. When is gonna be a good time to critique them? Because it sure fucking feels like the argument is never or this wouldn’t have been going on since fucking Bill Clinton left the Presidency.
After an election?
Post 2016 I was absolutely berated for thinking to critique what went wrong but sure I don’t remember what happened what is this gaslighting shit.
Sounds false
On reddit or something? I remember a fair bit of political reporting and opinion articles discussing how badly the Clinton campaign fucked up. You have a fair point that someone could have said this before she didn’t bother to go to Michigan and so on. Talking campaign strategy before it’s too late makes sense.
Okay, let’s break it down.
How about first half of the Trump presidency, when the Democrats needed to regroup, take stock of just how badly they screwed up and plan how to never do that again? I’d say that was a good time.
How about the first half of the Biden presidency, when the Democrats could actually pass legislation and position themselves to brand the nature of their term? That was a good time. Happy to engage then.
I know it sucks to not have an alternative. I get it. But going after the only side that is even vaguely functional because you think you’re holding “your guys” to account is not one of the set of options you have at the moment. Spend those good times to debate lobbying for deep, profound reform that unlocks the political system for more varied options, as opposed to making every election an existential choice between actual, explicit fascism and literally anything else.
Until you do that, these are your choices. Not liking the choices doesn’t change that fact.
How about first half of the Trump presidency, when the Democrats needed to regroup, take stock of just how badly they screwed up and plan how to never do that again? I’d say that was a good time.
That’s funny, because I was berated by people online for critiquing them at the time, too. Especially critiquing Clinton, how badly she ran her campaign, and how they had destroyed goodwill of progressives by putting their finger on the scale for Clinton. Sanders is a class act, and that’s why he stood behind Clinton.
Sorry, but I was still being assaulted with “BERNIE BRO!!!” during this time period, so you can take this perspective and shove it.
It really would have been a great time for the party to consider what happened, but they were busy doubling down on it being the voters fault and doing anything they could to shift blame away from their own mistakes. They were literally arguing in court it was their right to go in back rooms to smoke cigars to choose the candidate… come on…
Literally I have been talked down to every year of my adult life about this, because every year its too close to a mid-term election or a Presidential election.
So you still didn’t really address the elephant in the room which is progressives are never actually allowed to critique the party.
Your claims aren’t believable
??
This wasn’t even the political climate during the 2016 election. It wasn’t the political climate immediately after clinton
In fact I remember people being VERY harsh on democrats during the 2016 election.
And I remember being shat on for having those opinions? Sorry?
Again, by whom? I could say the same thing in different communities and some people would love it and others be enraged. I mean, criticize Trump in a conservative reddit sub in 2016 and you’d get instantly banned with a vulgar message from the mod.
MetaFilter is actually where a lot of DC DNC members have accounts and have for a long time. It’s one of the places where you can get a good eye on actual professionals and what they’re thinking.
This has been a problem on MeFi forever and continues to be, just check out thread on Jeff Sharlet’s book The Undertow. Half of it is about how Chris Hedges must be a Russian shill, despite the same people loving Hedges during the Bush administration.
https://www.metafilter.com/202246/A-slow-civil-war
So yeah, people who actually work for the DNC at the national level, that’s who. Along with every shitty redditor in every halfway political sub. And just peruse this thread (gestures wildly) for current examples, thanks.
…If they’re a DNC heavy site, then go to a normal site. Even reddit is going to be more normal. It’d be like going to truth.social and trying to argue anything about Trump.
I’ve never heard of metafilter in all my life.
But I still checked the articles in 2016 (it has an archive) and it was definitely not the discussions we’re having now.
edit: I don’t see anything like that in the 2000 elections for bush either.
Knowing how MeFi works, I have a hard time believing you read all the political threads post-2000, post-2008 and post-2016 already. They’re not neatly threaded like here, and many of them are hundreds of comments line, but sure, you “don’t see any.”
What you’re more likely to see is a message from a MeFi admin “a couple comments removed” while usually leaving the stuff that impugns progressives in the thread, removing any pushback or discussion of pushback.
I’m literally on Lemmy right now, one of the most leftist sites on the internet, and I’m still dealing with this bullshit right now.
So I don’t know where else you want me to go where I’m not overrun with it?
People are always heated for political discussions, but that was not the discussion back then.
It was literally the first election I voted in. It was mostly people making fun of trump/hillary. It was definitely not a “not the time” kindof discussion. The bleak discussion currently going on is semi-recent.
